OX dynamics makes me crazy ! Does anybody suceed in making a realistic hair simulation with Ornatrix ?

 
 
 
Posted by:gonsolin
Data created:23 April 2014

Well,

it's been a few days now that i'm trying to play with ornatrix simulation (ox dynamics) and sincerely I didn't manage to nothing.

I'm using Ornatrix 3.0.1.3 with 3dsmax 2014.

My workstation is a powerfull 2x Xeon E5 2687w with 2 GTX titan

I watched the 2 related tutorial videos many times and even a basic sphere as showed in example don't give me the expected results or simulate diferently from one attempt to another.

Some parameters works once and trying the same later gives me another result: i'm really getting mad !

I don't even speak from realisticer tries i've made with brushed hairs: I loose the main shape of my hair as soon as i start the simulation (even with very low global limit) and sometimes hairs become crazy without any logical explaination.

First question about all this is how MassFX engine handle all this:

I know you can choose to use Multithreading in MassFX options; in my case it don't change nothing...

I also tried the Hardware Acceleration to use the GPU instead: no differences at all !

Is it driven by Nvidia Physx ? Do i have to select some specific PhysX parameters in the Nvidia drivers? (I can choose between CPU or any connected GPU)

Does SLI have an influence ? (at the moment it's disabled).

 

Anyway any help would be welcome because at the moment simulation is just unusefull for me because it's just totaly unpredictable and do not fit with ny needs and attempts.

 

Best regards

 

Howdy,

First I would suggest posting a simple scene you are having issues with. You should get the same results and speed in the videos and if not I will want to look at that.

Many people including the companies on the front page like Blur, Scanline, and Plastic Wax do get pro level Dynamics with Ornatrix forsure. In most cases these studios will use the cloth method that is explained in the videos. MassFX for OX uses the same engine that 3ds Max core does and using MassFX with OX is similar to using it in Max. This means it is a fast game engine dynamics system that can fail from time to time and may not always produce the exact same results from sim to sim. It is very suitable for many animations but that does depend on your pipeline and shot.

With that said. Please do post your simple sphere scene that does not work for you. I will have a look straight away.

Thanks

Michael

The simple answer is NO.

To back this up there isn't a single example tutorial of someone making a hairstyle from start to finish using Ornatrix.

 You could possible create a straight long hairstyle if the dynamics didn't crash constantly.

You could create a short spike hairstyle but if you want to create anything else, best head over to Hairfarm. It doesn't have the physics but the physic here is so flaky it isn't worth your time.

I have spent a lot of time trying to get a satisfactory result but constantly run into technical issues and I'm frankly tired of do the work that should have been done in the first place before asking for artist hard earnt cash.

If you work at blur you have some of the best technical support and script writers to fill on the hole in this plugin.

Individual artist don't have that support and you don't get adequate support here to make your investment worthwhile.

Hello again!

If you do not get the same results as the tutorial video please post your scene. I am more than happy to take a look and help you out :) just post a simple scene like in the tutorial and the steps to reproduce yoututorial

As for Blur and their technical support. They are a very talented crew for sure! In fact I do a great deal of the technical support for them and help them the same way I would like to help you:) Also the main hair TD from Blur (Danny) is on this forum and replied to one of your questions about getting a hairstyle correct. 

So if you have some issues with dynamics. Please do post your scene ( a simple scene is best) and steps that you follow to cause the issue. I will be happy to help you work it out :)

Thanks again

Michael

 

 

Oh BTW do take a look at this in-depth tutorial by very talented Andrew Hakim Lee. He produce the amazing Stan Lee render with Vray and Ornatrix and did a very long tutorial (I think the OX parts are almost 3 hours) on styling, rendering etc. There are no dynamics in that tutorial but ramous was asking about a start to finish hair tutorial and this is a great one.

http://www.3dtotal.com/index_tutorial_detailed.php?id=1671#.U1vEL_ldXzg

 

Thanks!

Michael McCarthy

A total of one! And it's the simplest hairstyle to create. This is easy with the standard 3ds max hair system.

What I have asked for is something that is a bit more challenging, that requires the use of a combination of OX modifiers so we can get an idea of how an expert would deal with the large amount 
of pitfalls inherent is this workflow.
I have asked if you could upload examples you have created so we could backward engineer how it was done. 
 I asked this some time back and all it would take is for you to simply upload some of your work. Still nothing to date.
 At half the cost of say Vray, I feel entitled to ask for more from this package when you consider how much more work goes into Vray for instants.
How about creating a real world production tutorial demonstrating OX from start to finish? Something a bit more challenging the the one you found.
This would help individual artists and should be something you are capable of.

Hello Ramous,

Yes this is one real world production example like you requested. It may be a simple style but its 3 hours of good information on styling. Of course there will not be a tutorial on all styles of hair that can be made :) We also have a few others that go over basics of hair styling and Ornatrix parameters in our Youtube channle. We do intend to create more tutorials on styling and other topics as you suggested. As a matter of fact we continually release new video training on Ornatrix. A few weeks ago it was one on creating Alembic cache. With that said we do want to and intend to make even more styling videos so I hope that will help you out.

On the examples are you speaking of the scene file for the images I uploaded to help you with your hairstyle in the other thread? I did not save the file. If it would make you happy I can open the file again make the adjustments I explained and upload the scene to help you with your style.

Thanks

Michael

 

 

 

Ok I redid that scene for you and uploaded the scene file (in your original thread) I hope it helps you out.  

I also did a video on how to set this up and some pitfalls that will be uploaded shorlty.  

 

Edit: Ok here is the video. I hope that will help you more :) 

 

 

Thanks a bunch

Michael

This is where I had got with what I could figure out before I gave it up as a lost cause. Example attached.

The main reason is once you get the hair close to what you want there is no way to edit or  brush the final bits into position without destroying what is already achieved.

The only thing i can see in what you did was to used more guides than I did and still the hair in places is tweening incorrectly.

I have watch the video, the guy is a great artist but not much of a communicator. Still it's the only thing out there .

Unfortunately for me a hairstyle like that isn't what I'm on about. You can easily brush this hairstyle without to much hassle.  

Another case is when you have brushed a longer hairstyle and mass FX is a non starter, you try the cloth approach but all the cloth strips are now intersecting?

You now can't have self collision but still simulation times are huge only to find there are some setting issues but to resolve them will take an eternity. 

Once again here is where you need a real world example of how an expert would approach this problem.

Your example have little to offer one trying to resolve this problem.

Then you will try another style and run into a hole set of new problems with only trial and error to find your way.


Attached Files:

>Hair+setup+37.rar (2140338 bytes),

I took at look at your next scene here. If you watch the video and do what I show there for the sides you can see you will get much better match to your guides. The image attached shows the difference with your hair on the left, your guides on in the middle and the result of working with the tips from the video on the right. Thanks Michael


Attached Files:
Image 1

Hi there!

I'm glad my topic get that unexpected success Wink

I really want the ornatrix community (users and concepters) to react on one of the hardest part in hair creating in my opinion:

i mean SIMULATING complex moving hair realisticly .

First of all i would like to thanks Michael and Marsel for the support: most of the time, answers and updates are posted in very good delays.

The video on how to get better ground stranded hair is very interesting for me: i didn't known mosts of the tips showed. I'll try this with my hair setup...

However I agree with ramous62 that we need some advanced tutorials and examples with complexer hair (long shapes, curly hair, colliding hair...) because simple spheres simulation are NOT what users need in production...

I just downloaded last ornatrix version and will test it now with the scene i'm working on to be able to post something soon with some examples of what i'm trying to achieve and what i haven't solve, ok?

At the moment and since my last post i've figured out how to fix some of the problems i had to face... Of course i'll share this when posting my scene in order to help as much as possible the ornatrix community and get that product better and better...

Just to finish with the best positive attitude possible I really like the ornatrix Vray integration: It's really fast and it work with distribution rendering

 

Back to my tests now... see you soon !

 

Thanks so much for the response Gonsolin. We very much appricate your positive attitude. That is the best and most effective way to get things done. I would love to see the examples of issues you have solved as well as issues you want to solve. I'm sure we can help. 

Thanks again

Michael

Ok, me again...

Here I am with some feedbacks and questions.

I'm working on a dancing character animation and wanted to achieve some realistic hair simulation with collisions.

At the moment I have shaped some quick long hair and i was able to animate it using OXdynamics from T-pose to the start pose of my dancing animation.

Most hard work was to find working parameters in OXdynamics because in my case i had to use very small values without any particular reasons (i'm working at 1:1 scale in centimeters so nothing special about it...). For example hair density and global limits are set at their min value: 0,01

I also figured out that the Wisps parameters are very important but I'll talk about all that in another post...

For now I have some issues with OX strand animation and i would like to have some help if you don't mind:

My problem is that the hair guides don't follow the distribution surface object like the dynamic simulation does and i don't know why ?

I join a simplificated scene with both Dynamics and Strand animation: as you can see strand animation did not interact the same way as dynamics (wich was used to generate the OXH strand animation file). I also repaired that specificated end Frame in animation parameters must be last frame+1 in order to have a complete sequence (31 in my case).

Am i doing something wrong ?

Above are some very basics previews with some motion blur from my work in progress:

Hair01Hair02 


Attached Files:

>OXanimation.rar (4156589 bytes),

Hello Gonsolin,

I'm happy to take a look at your simplified scene and check the difference in the strand animation to the baked dynamics. These should be the same. Also if your working at 1 to 1 scale it should not be so hard to set up the dynamics values. I will take a look at this and see if something needs to change.

Thanks!

Michael

The issue with the animation modifier will be fixed in the next Ox V3 beta build.

Marsel Khadiyev (Software Developer, EPHERE Inc.)