Edited 03-Jan-2023 1:40

Hi Jeordanis,

the file is to demonstrate the problem. The hair was created and grounded with the figure in a A-Pose and using the two Re-Target tags and hip constrate tag to change the pose.

With the file as I sent it, run the Redshift IPR viewer. Notice the hair has somewhat followed the figure hair cap, but not correctly. Render to a file and you'll get something different.

If you disable the two retaget tags and the hip constarnt tag, you'll see the figure returning to the A-Pose the hair was created and grounded.

I suggest you read my posting yesterday where I provide a detail step-by-step on how I created this file.

Bruce.

Sorry error in my message (I corrected it above). I forgot that I created the file so the differnces between viewport, Redshift IPR and Rendering to a file. If you click on the Ornatrix object, you'll see the hair jumps to the cap.  Next, render to a file. Notice the hair does not folllow. 

Hi Jeordanis,

I created the Cinema-4D file to best demonstrate the problem I’m having and now it’s clear you’re seeing it too.

When you open the file, you are not seeing the pose the hair was created and grounded in (I call this the design pose), you’re seeing the hair is not following the hair cap like it should. Just me creating the screen captures for this posting, you can see I caught the hair going to multiple places without making design changes. You can also see that the viewport, the Redshift IPR window, and rendering to a file all have the hair in different places.

I also noticed putting this last posting together that just saving the Cinema-4D file, closing it, then re-opening it affects the behavior. Notice on my attached image “Render To IPR”, I caught the hair close to the posed position just by doing this save-close-open file process. The attached image “After Closing And Reopen File” doing this save-close-open file process once again the hair loads not at the pose position but back to the design position.

The attached image “After Clicking On Display Tag” show just clicking on the Ornatrix Display tag (not changing any settings) the hair in the Redshift IPR window is exactly where should be, though the viewport still shows the hair in the design pose.

The file I sent has the figure keyframed to the designed A-Pose on frame zero. You’re not seeing this because the 3 retargeting tags I placed in the file that’s capturing the pose of the “sitting” joints are enabled.  Disable these 3 tags (click on the tags, then uncheck the Enable check box in properties manager), then go to frame zero.  See my attached image “Setting Design Pose”.

The figure will go to pose the hair was designed in and ground and should look like the attached image “Hair Setup Pose”.

You can re-enable these tags to have the figure go back to a posed position where the hair should follow. I did this and caught the attached image “Figure Retargeted” moved in the Y and Z axis but not the X axis.

One thing that never changes is when I render to a file. The attached image “Render To File” what gets rendered to a file, while at the same time what the hair looked like in the viewport and Redshift IPR looked like the attached image “Render To IPR”.  So even with the viewport and Redshift IPR showed the hair correctly, the render to a file still did something else.

The attached image “Render To IPR” alone clearly demonstrates Ornatrix knows where to properly move grounded hair,….  when it wants to.

Edit: an hour later... I did a bunch of file-open, close, re-open, switching posed to design pose (not making any design changes) I was able to capture one render to file where it was correct "Hair Correct" file attachment. But after closing the project and re-opening it I can't get the same render to file. This was created with the same file I sen to you except with the body mesh. This image again proves Ornatrix knows where to properly move grounded hair,….  when it wants to.

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Attached Files:

After_Clicking_On_Display_Tag.JPG (77928 bytes), After_Closing_And_Reopen_File.JPG (87344 bytes), Figure_Retargeted.JPG (85218 bytes), Hair_Setup_Pose.JPG (62298 bytes), Hide_The_Motion_Source_Joints.JPG (19118 bytes), Render_To_IPR.JPG (72542 bytes), Setting_Design+Pose.JPG (177687 bytes),

Hi Jeordanis,

I did a bunch of experiments yesterday to try to better understand the logic Ornatrix uses to move grounded hair and found some interesting observations.

In the file I sent you, the figure is being posed by two mechanisms. Keyframes on the joints and retarget tags. Obviously, Cinema-4D can do everything at once, so it does things in a specific order. In this example, the key frames on frame zero only are evaluated. Since there are no key frames on another frame, by default Cinema-4D forces the joints to the positions identified by the keys even if not on frame zero.

When a retarget tag, or a script, (or anything else), Cinema-4D evaluates this performs joint movement after it did its key frame evaluation. I did a test by deleting the keyframes at frame zero and found Ornatrix positioned the ground hair to the correct pose at frame zero when rendering to file.  This would explain why open-close-reopen the project file changes how the Ornatrix position can be affected.  Cinema-4D has already completed its joint position evaluation before Ornatrix grounding movement code has started. In addition, this would explain why just simply clicking on tags can make an effect, because Cinema-4D performs another joint position evaluation. Based on timing on who gets done first (Cinema-4D or Ornatrix) drives where the hair is. To add to this, the Redshift IPR has its own slot in time where it can do its evaluations. This would explain why the viewport and the Redshift IPR doesn’t show the hair placement the same way.

My hunch then became that Ornatrix is “jumping the gun” on evaluating ground hair placement, so I created a second test.

In this test, I grounded the hair to actual character mesh and not a hair cap. The character was in an A-Pose with no animation, keyframes or retagging. Since this is a weighted rigged character, the character mesh can not be moved by changing its XYZ coordinates because it’s locked in place by the joint weight mapping mechanism.

With the viewport showing and Redshift IPR running, I changed the character mesh X coordinate to 5 cm. In the Cinema-4D properties window, as soon as I typed in 5 cm, the value went back to zero, as expected. But in the Redshift IPR, the hair did move 5 cm which should be impossible. This help support my thought that Ornatrix started moving the ground hair before Cinema-4D had finished figuring out that it can’t be done.

On an unrated note, I was successful in converting Ornatrix hair to Cinema-4D hair. I used the Ornatrix Hair to Splines modifier, then used the Export command which created a spline object of my hair. Then I used the Cinema-4D command Spline to Guides which also creates a Cinema-4D hair object. Then I simply used the Store Guides command, then the Root Guides command to my selected character mesh. The hair loads real fast stays with the mesh as well as adapting to mesh morphs. I’m hoping this is not my long term solution.

Bruce

Hi Jeordanis,

I sent you an email with 5 zip file attachment. Let me know if you did, or did not receive it.  Thanks.

Bruce

I sent my email from brucek5@charter.net. I sent the email to your "encoded" email address in your above comment.